50x400

[Swimwhammy]

aidsmith, your post is exactly what I am talking about. Of course Chuck's practices work for him, to a certain level. Yes he did get Elisabeth Beisel faster. No argument here.

I hope that what I said doesn't seem like bashing. It's just that the discussion needs to go toward this: what are other ways to get the job done? OR, what other teams utilize Chuck's method with success? Otherwise, why is this even a subject on this board?

Since I don't know much about swimming I probably shouldn't answer that;)

I'm going to stop here because I respect all fast swimming, no matter how it happens. It just happens in MANY different ways -- so why would anyone (coaches or athletes) want to do it in such a, uh, time-consuming way?

[Jcoach]

chuck has CONTINUED to keep her on the national team, and has brought alex forrester, laura sogar, and kaia simmons on to the jr national team stage.

First off - I love Chuck and wish I could have half the success he has had. I love the 50 x 400 set. But Just to set the record straight - Squids brought Kaia to the Jr team. Kaia has been with Chuck for a year. Alex Forrester was the fastest kid in her age group in the country at Badger, and Laura Sogar has done well with Chuck, but was already at or near that level when she showed up too. These particular swimmers have done great with John Collins, Josh Stern, Karl at Attleboro (now with Magnus) and whomever coached Laura.

[HoraceY]

I remember this set, definitely wasn't one of the hardest sets we did. The ones the day before Thanksgiving were definitely more draining,

One year:

10x100
5000
10x100
4000
10x100
3000

Twice through (It came out to 30k, took just over 6 hours, surprisingly I didn't get bored during it, felt amazing after I finished though - no better feeling)

It's been a little while so I don't remember all the details for each part, but I remember a good bit of it was race (I think the second 5000 was IM race as well as a 3000 fly race somewhere in there), and there were still some swimmers going under 30:00 for the 3000 (which was just freestyle, fast) which isn't too bad for the middle of a set of this magnitude.

And if anyone thinks completing a set like this and others of Chuck's workouts isn't extremely beneficial to the swimming of someone willing to do what it takes to be great, then I say try it and see. Obviously, it will take a lot of self discipline to do the longer sets and long races of which we often did (10,000 race, 5000 race, anything on training trip, etc.), but the mental and physical gains from these are something that can not be matched. And the atmosphere, as I remember, during a Chuck workout was like nothing I've seen since or before. As close to ideal for working hard as I've seen.

Oh, and people did not have shoulder problems more than other teams (in my experience, I would say we actually had less)

[ArtVanDeLegh10]

3000 fly race, 10,000 race, 5000 race

I love it.

[coachsba]

What a bunch of crap..those 10,000 fly sets that they used to do at a certain PA club and any other fly set like that (3,000,5,000) all that does is teach you how to swim fly with lousy technique..I have known far to many swimmers coming out of those kinds of programs that do not drop much time in college and have bad habits...that pound the yardage at all costs is just stupid.I am not a short yardage advocate but their are other ways to secure an aerobic base and endurance without encouraging bad habits...teams that do that just have lazy coaches as far as I an concerned ..and because a swimmer that does those kind of sets when they are 16 doesnt have shoulder problems doesnt mean their body will not have trouble from that kind of beating down the road..

[HoraceY]

..and because a swimmer that does those kind of sets when they are 16 doesnt have shoulder problems doesnt mean their body will not have trouble from that kind of beating down the road..

First off, fly is never a huge emphasis in these sets, it's just another part. Freestyle is the main emphasis with a fly segment thrown in there every now and then.

Also, out of the people I know who did sets like these, none went on to have troubles down the road.

[Sepulveda]

..and because a swimmer that does those kind of sets when they are 16 doesnt have shoulder problems doesnt mean their body will not have trouble from that kind of beating down the road..

First off, fly is never a huge emphasis in these sets, it's just another part. Freestyle is the main emphasis with a fly segment thrown in there every now and then.

Also, out of the people I know who did sets like these, none went on to have troubles down the road.

Yeah fly is just a short, 3000 yards race, segment of a freestyle practice.

[HoraceY]

Oops, sorry Art - misquoted you. I meant to have it say coachsba.

[Coach013]

coachsba on Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:39 pm
What a bunch of crap..those 10,000 fly sets that they used to do at a certain PA club and any other fly set like that (3,000,5,000) all that does is teach you how to swim fly with lousy technique.

Wow coach, I don't know where to begin with how much I disagree with your whole post, so I'll only pick this one point.

I think the exact opposite. Done correctly, and I prefer to do it one swimmer per lane so not to have stroke breaks, those long fly swims ENCOURAGE proper technique and maximum efficiency. Do a couple of those swims and they will find out that strong efficient fly is much easier than rag-tag struggle fly. No need to change if all they have to do is 50's and 100's. They can struggle through those with bad technique.

[researcher]

I am enjoying this discussion, and interested to see people's opinions. That being said..

Coach013, I have to disagree with you and go with coachsba on this one. Doing over 1000 yards of straight fly will encourage a different stroke than anything you would use in racing. I understand your point that swimmers must find an efficient fly to make it through, but that won't resemble anything close to their stroke in a 50, 100 or 200 (or even the fly in a 400IM). And at the end of the day, don't we want kids to be good racers instead of good trainers?

[ArtVanDeLegh10]

I think the exact opposite. Done correctly, and I prefer to do it one swimmer per lane so not to have stroke breaks, those long fly swims ENCOURAGE proper technique and maximum efficiency. Do a couple of those swims and they will find out that strong efficient fly is much easier than rag-tag struggle fly. No need to change if all they have to do is 50's and 100's. They can struggle through those with bad technique.

I'm not exactly sure how you can honestly believe this, but you are entitled to your opinion. I've done some 4,000-5,000 LCM fly sets, and I certainly wasn't swimming with great technique. I was swimming to survive. I would guess that there are very few people that can swim a 5,000 fly with the same technique as their 100 or 200 fly.

You can encourage proper technique all you want, but it's not going to happen if you're doing 4,000-5,000 yard/meter fly sets.

[Coach013]

I understand your point that swimmers must find an efficient fly to make it through,

Once they find that efficient fly it is much easier to adapt it to "race" fly than it is to work with inefficient fly / bad technique.

And at the end of the day, don't we want kids to be good racers instead of good trainers?

The truly great trainers (not just the garden variety I come to practice every day and swim all my laps) don't make such bad racers. Dolan, Vendt, Snik, Evans come to mind.

[Sepulveda]

Wow coach, I don't know where to begin with how much I disagree with your whole post, so I'll only pick this one point.

I think the exact opposite. Done correctly, and I prefer to do it one swimmer per lane so not to have stroke breaks, those long fly swims ENCOURAGE proper technique and maximum efficiency. Do a couple of those swims and they will find out that strong efficient fly is much easier than rag-tag struggle fly. No need to change if all they have to do is 50's and 100's. They can struggle through those with bad technique.

It breaks my heart that there are coaches out there who believe in this nonsense.

[Coach013]

It breaks my heart that there are coaches out there who believe in this nonsense.

Sorry, but the nonsense has put 2 flyers on the US Olympic Team. One is currently a physician and the other a happily married stay at home mom from what I know, so I don't think it ruined them for life. Both active athletes too, so their health is good.

Oh and before you say "old school"...it also has one on the current US National Team in the 100 fly.

[TheRoboticRichardSimmons]

i think it's disingenuous to hold up olympic swimmers as validation for or against a particular training style. they are, by definition, anomalies. i think it's more useful to structure this conversation around AVERAGE swimmers, which is, by definition, most swimmers.

i've never done more than 10 consecutive lengths of fly in my life, so i can't really comment on those kind of sets. however, i have done plenty of long breaststroke sets, and i can tell you that it is much easier to finish those kind of sets if you compromise your stroke. the hands slow down and they recover lower in the water, and the stroke rate drops WAY down. they're difficult aerobic sets for sure, but i certainly don't think they were the best way to train for a 100 or 200 breast. in my opinion, doing shorter sets (repeat 50's and 100's or broken 200's) trying to maintain a certain stroke rate with with fast hands recovering at the surface of the water was WAY more physically demanding and often left me in far more pain. and, incidentally it trained me to race better.

i know, this is all anecdotal evidence, but those experiences have gone a long way to shape my philosophy toward swim training.

edit: oh, and training myself to recover aggressively with fast hands at the surface of the water over short distances helped me maintain that approach over longer distances as well (varying distance per stroke and stroke rate). so, in my case, short swimming helped me swim longer distances more efficiently rather than the other way around.